Das weltweite Magazin und der Marktplatz für Oldtimer-Enthusiasten – von Enthusiasten.
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Grand Hotel Trento Mystery (Update: 1911 Gräf & Stift )
Among the many unidentified prewar cars in my photo collection is this huge phaeton parking in front of a certain "Grand Hotel Trento". Most likely it was located in the Italian city of Trento that belonged to Bavaria and the Austrian-Hungarian Empire for more than 800 years, before it was attributed to Italy after WW1.
I am sure that this photo was taken before the Great War, hence it's quite possible that the car was made by a German or Austrian manufacturer.
Bearing in mind that this photo is more than 100 years old, it's still impressive in my opinion. This is not a snapshot, but the result of a capable photographer's effort.
It appears, as if one of the two gentlemen wearing bright coats was just checking his emails - but probably he is rather holding the envelope with a written letter from his fiancee in his hand...
Anyone who can shed some light on the situation and the car on this beautiful shot?
Words and picture: Michael Schlenger
Publiziert:
Mittwoch Dezember 7th, 2016
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Kommentare
Unbekannt
12 Dezember 2016, 16:15
Unbekannt
10 Dezember 2016, 16:43
Mr. Schlenger, "professional" photograph?
I will give your request my best shot.
The attendant(left)is "directing", LONG double breasted attire symbolic, direction received from secondary source, traceable by NARROW "tripartite" balcony, top hinged(narrow) shutters, AND the Hotel NAME. Balcony as seen, evocative of the UNIVERSAL tri-sectional car body(front, passenger, rear).
I visualize that pervasive photograph of the initial(?) FORD assembly line, pioneers lowering bodies onto chassis' as they passed along the outside of a building.
Is this a 1908 model, I say YES! Vanadium alloy chassis.
YES, Graf und Stift, "Doppelphaeton".
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I will give your request my best shot.
The attendant(left)is "directing", LONG double breasted attire symbolic, direction received from secondary source, traceable by NARROW "tripartite" balcony, top hinged(narrow) shutters, AND the Hotel NAME. Balcony as seen, evocative of the UNIVERSAL tri-sectional car body(front, passenger, rear).
I visualize that pervasive photograph of the initial(?) FORD assembly line, pioneers lowering bodies onto chassis' as they passed along the outside of a building.
Is this a 1908 model, I say YES! Vanadium alloy chassis.
YES, Graf und Stift, "Doppelphaeton".
Unbekannt
08 Dezember 2016, 22:55
Dear Mark, dear Graham,
Many thanks or your suggestion.
But which manufacturer exactly do you mean by "Simplex"? As far as I know, there were at least half a dozen of companies in Continental Europe, the U.K. and the U.S.A. where "Simplex" was part of the brand name...
Michael
P.S. As for the hotel: It could be the 19th century predecessor of the dreadful modernistic "Grand Hotel Trento" that spoils the old town centre of the city today. But I would not rule ot the possibility that it stood elsewhere.
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Many thanks or your suggestion.
But which manufacturer exactly do you mean by "Simplex"? As far as I know, there were at least half a dozen of companies in Continental Europe, the U.K. and the U.S.A. where "Simplex" was part of the brand name...
Michael
P.S. As for the hotel: It could be the 19th century predecessor of the dreadful modernistic "Grand Hotel Trento" that spoils the old town centre of the city today. But I would not rule ot the possibility that it stood elsewhere.
Unbekannt
08 Dezember 2016, 21:44
If you identify a car, you can never ignore the location. And although there is some resemblance with the Amplex (the continuation of the American Simplex, not to be confused with the NY based Simplex) a striking difference is the fact that the gear and brake levers are inside the body, apart from the many other small differences in body (and other) details. Moreover an American Simplex in pre-WW1 German areas would be extremely unlikely. With repect to the sloping bonnet: this was partly style, partly development. In 1911 Gräf u. Stift models with a horizontal as well as a sloping bonnet were available, and Franz Ferdinand's Gräf u. Stift was a 1914 model when sloping bonnets were normal.
The Grand Hotel Trento was located at the Piazza Dante. If you go there with Google Maps and do a streetview, you can observe the same building: it is still there!
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The Grand Hotel Trento was located at the Piazza Dante. If you go there with Google Maps and do a streetview, you can observe the same building: it is still there!
Unbekannt
08 Dezember 2016, 17:51
https://www.google.com.ar/maps/@46.0721272,11.1212003,3a,58.9y,28.36h,93.15t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s8SQFbne3qCyS5m-Z2bmeHw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1
I found it!!!!! The building with minimal alterations still exists, only that it is no longer a hotel, it seems to be a public building!
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I found it!!!!! The building with minimal alterations still exists, only that it is no longer a hotel, it seems to be a public building!
Unbekannt
08 Dezember 2016, 17:35
http://www.catinabib.it/files/TIC511-0281.jpg
In this photograph, they can recognize the same facade, dated 1903.-
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In this photograph, they can recognize the same facade, dated 1903.-
Robert
08 Dezember 2016, 17:35
The car is a Gräf& Stift from 1910 -12, but I would say it is the larger Model 40/45 HP (Franz Ferdinand's car was a 28/32 PS). I only have a picture from a 40/45 Saloon, but bonnet and mudguards look the same as on this photo. Also the Suspension of the rear spring is like on other Gräf& Stift. Besides, these days every single car could look a bit different.
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Unbekannt
08 Dezember 2016, 12:33
I too was thinking Graf & Stift, but Franz Ferdinand's car has a bonnet which slopes down towards the radiator from the scuttle and also has tilted, coarser louvers. I keep looking at period Isotta Frascini's, but most have chain drive with enclosed side casings. Hard to tell if the car in the photo has chains, but the long undertray could be concealing a seperate gearbox with transaxle perhaps? The radiator shell looks to be painted as well? Maybe FIAT, Alfa, Lancia or Itala? Forgetting the location, I'd go with a Simplex Model 50...
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Unbekannt
08 Dezember 2016, 09:31
I'm not certain to which Grand Hotel Trento this photo is of though, looking at the dates.
Although the view may not be the current hotel frontage.
From the current hotel website,
http://www.grandhoteltrento.com/en/hotel it states :
The Grand Hotel Trento, built between 1939 and 1942 by the engineer John Lorenzi (1901-1962), is a beautiful example of rationalist architecture that was inspired by the work of the architect Erich Mendelsohn (1887-1953) and represents the historical passage between the medieval and the modern city.........
In the nineties the building underwent a radical restructuring by the architect Glauco Marchigiani, who elevated it by one floor. Even the interiors were reconfigured to better meet the new demands of hospitality in the hotel, while maintaining a classic style inspired by the fin-de-siècle.
Bibliography: "Il Grande Albergo Trento di Giovanni Lorenzi", by Massimo Edoardo and Paola Pettenella. Milan: Electa, 1996.
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Although the view may not be the current hotel frontage.
From the current hotel website,
http://www.grandhoteltrento.com/en/hotel it states :
The Grand Hotel Trento, built between 1939 and 1942 by the engineer John Lorenzi (1901-1962), is a beautiful example of rationalist architecture that was inspired by the work of the architect Erich Mendelsohn (1887-1953) and represents the historical passage between the medieval and the modern city.........
In the nineties the building underwent a radical restructuring by the architect Glauco Marchigiani, who elevated it by one floor. Even the interiors were reconfigured to better meet the new demands of hospitality in the hotel, while maintaining a classic style inspired by the fin-de-siècle.
Bibliography: "Il Grande Albergo Trento di Giovanni Lorenzi", by Massimo Edoardo and Paola Pettenella. Milan: Electa, 1996.
Unbekannt
08 Dezember 2016, 08:50
Halo in Prewarcar , auto what stay for the Hotel Trento is Austrian Gräf & Stift identic model which have proprietor prince Thurn-Taxis within which make atentat in Sarajevo (Franz Ferdinand D´Este)-may bee is your car.
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Unbekannt
08 Dezember 2016, 08:11
I'm fairly sure that the car is a ca 1911 Gräf & Stift. The body style was called in German a 'Sport-Doppelphaeton', but also 'Sportwagen'. In English we would call it a sports tourer.
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Unbekannt
08 Dezember 2016, 06:15
There still is a Grand Hotel Trento in that city, but it does look vastly different from the outside, at least nowadays.
Of course, there might have been some remodelling over the years.
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Of course, there might have been some remodelling over the years.
On page 77 of Hans Seper's book "Die Brüder Gräf" (Vienna, 1991) a very similar vehicle is shown. Even if it has a sedan body, the whole front section appears to be virtually identical.
As Mark has already pointed out, the Gräf & Stift car, in which the Austrian successor to the throne was murdered in 1914 looks different. Actually, it was a 1910 model.
As for the splendid Grand Hotel, I am pretty sure, it was demolished and replaced by a modernist building that still exists today bearing the same name but spoiling the otherwise intact historic centre of Trento...