Another sad saloon story

Well,I have read all the comments so far,& despair.Most continental buyers of old cars dont seem to realise these original old saloons (or drop-head coupes)have a past,in a charming unspoilt world which was good,& is worth remembering.You can take yourself back into to it by driving into some quiet countryside,(its called "touring"-remember?)with a picnic in a basket,go for a walk,perhaps,& a gentle cruise home for supper.Or visit an old unspoilt town,where the car looks so right.But I dont think many of the people who have commented understand this,& are not interested.What they want to do is modernise an old car to suit the roads,houses,& lifestyles they wish to live.Why not leave old cars alone,& build a kit car instead?

Any chance of a spell-checker being applied both to articles and comments? It's not just old cars being destroyed here!

I've been following this thread with interest - as I've recently bought a 1936 Riley Merlin still with it's original body. Although I've since found out that the front seats are not original, this is the only thing I plan to change - and I intend to use and cherish the car in it's original configuration.

Having said that I agree with Bruce (post 26): there is much moaning and commiserating by the "preservation society members" on this post. Aesthetic and ethical musings are fine - as long as you don't have to put your money where your mouth is!

Perhaps it's also worth remembering that good looks can be deceiving. There was recently another Merlin for sale on this website which looked rather nice. The new owner is now currently undertaking a most likely very costly body-off restoration and intends to return the car to it's original specification. I take my hat off to the man - he has the funds (or the skills or both) to see this through. Check-it out for yourselves:

http://www.oldclassiccar.co.uk/forum/phpbb/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=13273

Can anyone of the anoraks imagine an enthusiast admiring for example a Riley Brooklands but not having the funds to purchase the real thing?
The next closest thing to a Brooklands is a proper Brooklands Replica for about 1/3 of the price...
Nobody needs the permission of the "specialists" to build or purchase his "dreamcar" if he likes to!
Don´t be so arrogant and blaim someone for living his dream!
At Peter Cole: Don´t you think it is just big fun to drive an open car from the thirties even when you´re not in the midlife crises, no matter if it´s an "Original" or a "Replica".
Driving a classic car is passion, not science!

I'm not in favour of replicas , or specials for that matter, but that is purely because they don't attract me. But here it is not as if Eddie Albers has destroyed the body - indeed his offering it for sale provides a good opportunity for anyone with an Adelphi which has rotted away ( and wood is always a potentially catastrophic problem with ash-framed cars of this era to restore an otherwise probably unsaveable Adelphi

This morning at breakfast I saw another so called postwar(?) dual cowl 'looker' for sale: Bentley R Type Special Roadster 1953/2013. As long as there is money to be made these Frankenstein-on-wheels will be produced. And on top of that a real bargain at GBR 128.000 :-)

Other side of the coin
Here in Thailand, Open top cars are "de rigeur" at the car shows.
Unfortunately they don't drive them to the show like that.
It's top up and Aircon wound fully up, because during the day it's probably 35/36 degrees C outside, and driving with the top down has been known to give you sunstroke.
At night it drops to a manageable 29 degrees, but who can see you (posing) at night ?
No - it all seems to be a Fantasy ! ..... Scorching wind in your face ! !
Stuart (Saloon owner)

Calm down guys!

Why is an open sports car worth so much more? Who is buying all these saloons and keeping them on the road? If you look at most of the happenings around the world, you see grinning faces in the worst weather conditions out of these "cut down" specials or original open cars.
Probably these cars are our belongings and we might be entitled to do that?
Or have we to be keepers of historic authentic vehicles with even original air in the tires to please these awful tirekickers at any occasion to tell us how it has to be done right?
These are the people who drive then off in a battered old rusty Toyota.
I still have a saloon sitting in my garage in really nice condition. Its from the early fifties, not driven in the last 30 years and everytime I put it up for sale the interest is stale. No Im not going to cut it up but for heavens sake im not giving it away for a fiver. So it may rest for another 30 years and my kids can decide what to do with it. But I´m not gona drive it. The old girl sure has style but I prefer an open top car. Anyway its interesting that so many saloons get still butchered, as there are so many rolling chassis and mediocre specials are on the market. I think it is a pitty but nevertheless saloons lack the missing top so I fully understand people who modify their cars as to please them. Anyways it has always been done so why is it cruel today and that 4,5 Bentley le mans from the 60´s is an icon?
So whatever the reason is for "cutting" the result will hopefully be appreciated an will be on the road again opposed to all those garage beautys we will never see.
Ask my kids: they will opt for the open sports car every time, the find not only saloons boring but also my dads 911 targa. Its not windy enough!
Kind regards from the Tyrol.
To much salt on the roads to have a decent winter drive but sure it makes a lot of fun to drive on snowy roads top down.
Keep up happy motoring, enjoy your things the way you like !

Thomas

[quote name="Sebastien Simon"]But who is going to buy that nice Kestrel near Basel (CH) and keep it original, and drive it?[/quote]

I will, as soon as the LG6 is sold...

So everyone is whining, condemning, and sharing old stories, done this, not done that, etc...!
But who is going to buy that nice Kestrel near Basel (CH) and keep it original, and drive it?

guys... stop all the bitching if you have such a problem with this put your hands in your pockets and make an attempt to buy the car and save it ...
we had an 8 liter bentley that was converted many years ago from saloon to lemans body ... and for a fact I am telling you we had more use as a lamans rep than if it were a saloon body ... this is a part of life and were the money and the market is .... so grow a pair ..... so then u will need to go and stop stanley mann, bob peterson and the likes from making usable cars ....

Further to my previous post, there is a current advertisement on this website for a Riley 12/4 rolling chassis with running gear where the vendor has the temerity to describe the lot for sale as having “essentially a Sprite-type engine”. A "Sprite-type engine"?? What extraordinary, weasel-speak!! When is a Sprite a Sprite, and when is a Sprite not a Sprite! And the asking price for what in the end is a very ordinary lot of Riley detritus is 12,000 GBP. I do hope that the Adelphi to which I referred is rescued to avoid a future manifestation as another fake racer at some Oldtimer (sic) event.

Wow- poking a hornets nest springs to mind.
If there is a market - who buys these mock sports cars and where do they show them?
I hope you all go and make rude comments if you see one - this might make the owner lose face and reduce the mock turtle's value, thus slowing down the wholesale destruction.
Austin Sevens have a long and chequered history of conversion from saloon to sports car and now the completely original bodied specimens are very valuable.

Tony.

The VSCC has recognised that this is a problem and part of the rules on eligibility state :

10. Cloning, i.e. one car broken up to make two or more cars is not approved and cars manufactured in this
way are not acceptable. It is not acceptable to turn a sports car into a fake Historic Racing Car or a saloon
car into a sports or touring car.

Quite how they police where the new specials come from and whether they are indeed cut down saloons I don't know.

[quote name="Robert Vierbergen"]Maarten, do you run a B&B? Or wasn't that an invitation? Phone me if you want to swap your beautiful LG6 for my ugly Alvis 12/50 ... [/quote]

Ask that question again in 1 year time and you're more than welcome to come and visit us in Italy to see the bathroom and bring your (I assume) lovely Alvis for some great touring of Italy's best roads!

It seems that fake '30s style "racing cars" are currently the mode for many men facing their mid-life crises. The prices for many of these fakes reach heights which can only be described as hallucinatory. On the other hand look at the mere 14,000 GBP being currently asked for what looks like a delectable Adelphi .... a bargain I fear some ego-driven would-be-racer will not resist.

In 1973 (the earliest Riley register membership list I have) 61 Adelphi's were listed. 48 12/4's in the UK 3 12/4's overseas, 5 15/6 in the UK, 2 16/4 in the UK and 1 overseas, 2 8/90 in the UK. One of the 15/6 was my first car DLP 896, I sold it to a guy in Kent and have never seen or heard of it since.

I understand that there are now less than 30 listed in the current Riley Register membership list

I believe we have a duty to future generations to maintain what original cars that have survived as such and not turn them into specials.

One point which has not yet been mentioned is the following. In many european and other countries we try to get some privileges like low taxes or veteran state for our old cars. Our excuse for using obsolete technology just for our fun is usually that we preserve important cultural values. Unfortunately if you look at today's veteran scene, you could get the impression, that in the twenties there were mostly sportscars running around. The more such falsifications are around, the more difficult it will become to defend our privileges. And the reputation of our passion is already now suffering from too much pur sang.

Maarten, do you run a B&B? Or wasn't that an invitation? Phone me if you want to swap your beautiful LG6 for my ugly Alvis 12/50 ...

And to gnothing ...your answer just shows it is from all times. One did the same thing in the 30ies, 50ies,60ies etc. It does not mean that I agree, but I accept that it is a part of a free society. I might even take off that ducksback from the 60ies to replace it with something else. Would that be a nono also?

"Robert Vierbergen"

"There is a big business in the UK ruining MG's to build so called Q types. Should we shoot them?"

Yes.

I feel the need to point out Robert Vierbergen that my (Edwardian) bathroom has had its original cast iron bath china basin removed. This was done, like the change in coachwork to his own cars, a long time ago. I am presently in the process of restoring the bathroom to its former (freezing cold) glory. The point most people are making, particulalry about this advert, is that a prefectly good body has been removed. While not all will agree with me when I say that a truly rotten body could be replaced, this is an example of a body in excellent condition. In the Riley Register I have heard every excuse from 'a tree fell on it' to 'my son burned the body by accident while I was out shopping!'. There is no worthy excuse. This is either greed (because it will be worth more as a special) or vanity (always wanted one regardless of the cost) or plain envy (can't have a TT Sprite so I'll build one).

I think that PWC has the right policy. I think you have to accept the adverts, otherwise it is censurship, which is probably worse.

Perhaps some education would be good too. If anyone thinks that taking off the saloon body and bolting on twin carbs and a pointed tail body will create a sports car, they are very much mistaken!

All the best, perhaps see you at Monthlery again. We are going in my families Adelphi, fresh from its 5 place on the VSCC measham night rally!

Regards

Tim

To Robert Vierbergen: What happened in the 1960s (or in the 1930s) has no bearing on scrapping historic bodies in this century. You miss the point. To scrap original bodies that have survived for 80 years and in decent to good condition is not comparable at all to your example of a rotted out body that was scrapped 50 years ago. What's done in the past is in the past, we are talking about the present.

And it's NOT just saloons these daya. There is a very recent case of a Bentley TOURER in good condition that was removed in favor of building an ugly "boy racer." The only solution to this mess is for more and more people to decry desecration of original bodies and for the relevant owners clubs to stop encouraging it, as some of them still do.

[quote name="Robert Vierbergen"]These people that brake down their 19th century bathrooms to put in a new pvc bath and gleaming plastic showers, but condamn people whom are doing that to their cars.[/quote]

You haven't seen my bathroom yet... :-)

At least with the advent of the internet and great sites like PWC information is widely and freely spread speedily around the world.

The few who are prepared to invest in these early saloons have far more opportunities to locate and save them whilst the real character of those that desecrate them is also widely revealed.

Just as in the bad old days there was nothing to stop scurrilous and conscienceless individuals offering for sale things they did not own and had not seen to unsuspecting enthusiasts leaving them sans cash and parts. Even my crows (notice the homophone Mr Rose) at the end of the garden cringe with shame that some might thing it was they that were the perpetrator of such skullduggery.

Why PWC tolerates further adverts from such dubious characters when they have clearly been caught out is beyond me let alone why they would publish their rantings and ramblings.

editor: we take much trouble to filter out as much as possible clear scams which are freely admitted by many other well known websites including the largest in the world. PWC however does not leave out clear offerings which are open on the market. In fact it would be a stupid thing to do so for various reasons. And money for sure is not a motivator in this with a Euro 2,60 advert...

This was the response I received from the seller of the Adelphi body.

"Good afternoon Tim,



Sorry but that is no option, the body is already off the chassis.

I bought the car because it has a perfect engine and gearbox and drives very well.



Kind regards,"

Oh dear Joris, you have woken up the wholy grale hunters. These people that brake down their 19th century bathrooms to put in a new pvc bath and gleaming plastic showers, but condamn people whom are doing that to their cars. Should I stay in a corner of my garage weaping, because somebody in the 60ies took of the rotten saloon body and replaced it with a four seater open tourer body, I love my Talbot anyway. (No it's not for sale) My Alvis 12/50 saloon was completely rebuild as a ducksback for four (that never existed) in 1961, she is so ugly that I like her. There is a big business in the UK ruining MG's to build so called Q types. Should we shoot them? Nobody wanted these old saloons a few years ago and now they are in vogue. Advice: do not buy from carbreakers or from carrefakers.

A few years ago I bought Lagonda LG6 with a unique Barker body to save it from being scrapped. The car has a wonderful patina, inside and out, however, it wasn't a runner. We refurbished the car to make it a good runner again, and protect it from being another Le Mans replica victim. Since a few months it has been up for sale again because we need the workshop space, but it is difficult to sell because the market for Saloon cars just isn't there and it is currently not economically feasible to restore it to the condition most people prefer (although the car will eventually probably be worth more if one keeps it in its current original, patinated condition). It is just the way it is, and the only thing we can do is educate the general public that an originality is worth more than the latest fashion - providing it is in good driving condition!

Fully agree, stop the slaughter of fine saloons, and may I add I have no time for any type of replicas or reproductions either.

For some 40 years I have championed the preservation and conservation of Prewar saloon cars. For many of these years I have not been understood so it is nice to think that now there are a few more likeminded people out there.Hopefully we will soon reach the point were servicable coachwork will no longer be destroyed. Keep on "banging the drum" friends

I think it's two years ago when I sent an email to a seller of a Bentley bodywork with the same offer, and of course I never got an answer. The really beautiful Derby Bentley is probably history by now.
Unfortunately there are some professionals around who specialised in transforming Riley saloons usually to "Brooklands specials*. At the moment there is a fully original Kestrel for sale here in Switzerland, the seller also proposes to use it for the creation of a "special".
The funny fact is that there are nowadays more Riley racers around than ever left the factory. Sooner or later an original Riley saloon will become something really special.

In the early 90's I drove to see a Riley Sportspecial, somewhere near Geneva. It turned out to be a Nine running gear with a handsome aluminium racebody on top of the original frame. The result looked good but the seats were placed too low and it was impossible to sit in the car because you couldn't bend your knees to work the pedals. And the steeringwheel poked in your stomach. Those swiss 'experts' demolished a nice Riley Nine Saloon and turned it into something goodlooking but totally unusable. All together a really pity affair...

I think the editor should publish the reply to Tim Brown's offer. I too am absolutely sick of saloon bodies turning up for sale minus their chassis. Rileys seem to suffer from this more than anyone else.
Demand for 'interesting' (rather than the uninteresting kind? Does an Adelphi count as uninteresting? It probably saved the company at one point as it was a best seller and Victor Riley's favourite model. Maybe a Kestrel is more 'interesting' because of its sporty coachwork?) saloons may rise when there are so few that they cannot meet the demand, but I doubt it.
People who new to the hobby will inevitably buy the flash specials that are now being commercially produced in the UK and in Europe. My advice to prewarcar.com is not to ban adverts for the bodies, but for newly constructed specials.

So I have a coupe body with no chassis I will be putting it on a bare chassis. It had a 4 door body on it but it fell of with no wood left. Some people had summer open and closed bodies for the summer and winter.

I promise faithfully not to mention the BPGOD Mocando false flag event this time round, except this brief once.... but Ruud and Joris and all you guys in that ginormous PWC office.... you will appreciate, as do us oldies like Hans and Mike and etc.... that we get to a stage in personal motoring life where an ambulance is an embarrassment, and even a hearse leaps way-y-y too fast out of the mortuary blocks.... yet we greybeards in theory have untold squillions** to spend on SPORTS SALOONS ... and yet you effing-phony-phaking youngsters are STILL following the egregiously-bad example we oldies set in the Last Century.

'cept where we merely cut the Top off the Hat, you small shi... er, you little tearaways insist on trying to flog off the entire carrosserie corpse pre-morgue and for nothing

Leave the bloody sedan chair intact FGS. Doesn't matter if all the ash is worm-eaten, just ignore the door that falls off.... leave it bolted shut, we will still buy the car..... eventually..... just don't insult us all with your blatant offer of a motor-car body you haven't the heart (forget the 'good sense') to bury

I have no fewer than three (THREE) as in (3) fabulous chassis without a skerrick of body left from the last Ice Age.... I have an 8-litre Bentley project for a VERY affordable neg deal (HINT) and I am getting almost zero enquiries .... so why in the name of sanity are we STILL seeing semi-sanitised adverts from cretins-called-idiots wanting to WRECK good Rileys (notice the alliteration)

SURELY to the goddess that be, surely an 8-litre Bentley EATS an overdrive Riley with Pathfinder engine, Garratt twin-turbo and right-hand shift-change lever?

.... and MY way of achieving 8 litres dates from 25 YEARS before your out-of-date PathBloodyFinder motor wuz factored

IYCWIM

Hey you noble and patient prewarcom guys.... Tim Brown repeats almost EXACTLY the offer I personally made (in Dutch and in English AND in triplicate) to the last cretin (who happened to be a Hollander but who could for all I care have been one of Ban Ky Moon's phony World Citizens (PM me for my definition of a Real W-C...or phony... hint: you are almost certainly NOT one such, but don't get me going on post-9/11 politics or I'll never finish this massive missive in the 10,000 characters Joris sez I'm aloud)