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About full barns and deep pockets (Update: Sold at Euro 54,832 )



Tim Gunn: I was recently asked a question, which I'm sure, has been asked at every gathering of old vehicle enthusiasts, around the globe these past few of months. "Money no object, what would you buy from the barn find collection in France?" If for some reason you have been locked in your own barn waiting to be discovered, then the collection of 60 rare cars found last year will come as a shock to you. The remarkable collection of Roger Baillon is to be offered by French auction house, Artcurial at Retromobile in Paris on February 6th. Widely publicised as the 'last barn find' and the 'automotive find of the century'. But I would like to point out, we still have 85 years till the end of the century and although not as large, I'm sure; more 'barn find' collections will be un-earthed in the years to come. The collection ranges from a basket case in the form of a Delahaye Type 43 camion-plateau from 1911, to the sublime, Ferrari 250 GT SWB California of 1961. What is clear though; most of the cars will either need a deep pocket to buy and others will need a barn full of money to restore.

So what if money was no object and you had the chance to own a piece of the Baillon legacy? To be honest, my personal thought, would be to go for a car with great character, but requires simple work to get back on the road. One such car in the collection would be Lot 44, the Lorraine-Dietrich B3-6 pick-up. With some fresh tyres, a mechanical overhaul and a good dose of oily rag, you'd feel like a French farmer on his way to market every time you drove it. The Bugatti T57 from 1937 is going to be one of those cars in the collection which will probably require both a deep pocket to buy; and to restore. But if I owned the project, I'd make it respectable and use it, while enjoying the previous history of this wonderful car.

Lastly, if money really was no problem, my wife would like me to bring home the 1961 Ferrari 250 SWB California, but in a different colour, so I won't be doing that, instead, it's going to have to be Lot 26, the Amilcar CGSs from 1927. Definitely needing 'a bit or work', but it would fit in my garage just nicely. 

editorial addition: what's your gamble on the final price for the Amilcar with a Euro 3000-5000 estimate? We'll offer a PreWarCar brass plate to whom comes closest to the final result, including buyer's costs.

UPDATE by Editor: all your guesses were defeated by reality! Even the highest guess by Ace Zenek of Euro 51,000 was passed with a few more thousands... Still Ace is the winner being the closest and will receive the PreWarCar brass plate. Ace, please send us your address at office#prewarcar.com
     

Publiziert:
Mittwoch Januar 28th, 2015
Unbekannt
10 Februar 2015, 14:10
no more comments, gentlemen ???
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Unbekannt
08 Februar 2015, 12:18
The real value is in the eye of the beholder... And that' s obviously a rich man.
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Ace Zenek
07 Februar 2015, 23:52
With commission it sold for € 54,900 which was not too far off of my €51,000 estimate. Amazing car and sales price.
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Robin Batchelor
06 Februar 2015, 14:27
Amilcar CGSs sold for 46,000 Euros + commission. Bidding shot straight to 30,000 in seconds. Amazing.
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Unbekannt
01 Februar 2015, 17:14
The Singer Lot #1 would be a much better buy at a top estimate of 800 euro's.The Amilcar will make 17250 euro's.
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Unbekannt
31 Januar 2015, 15:38
If this much advertised car follows the 'Lago Maggiore Bugatti Brescia' that was sold approx 5 years ago at auction in Paris and is currently on display in the Peter Mullin Museum collection, I would guess this Amilcar will go as high as 32.500 euro incl. buyer premium. Approx 6 times it's high estimate.
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Unbekannt
31 Januar 2015, 07:45
7500 euros
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Unbekannt
30 Januar 2015, 11:43
No doubt that after all the piblicity this auction has attracted, someone will bid a silly price - my guess 27500 euros.
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Unbekannt
30 Januar 2015, 09:28
This could be an excellent barometer for those reporting on the current state of the "collectors car" market. I suspect bidding will be strong and that the lucky (or unlucky) person will have to sign away 35,600 of their hard earned euros.....
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Unbekannt
29 Januar 2015, 20:47
My guess on price, £15250 would buy the amilcar
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Unbekannt
29 Januar 2015, 20:37
E28.000.Because it's a not rolled 40 years or so car put on the market. All depends on the wallet and the geografical site of the buyer. Y can make a sublime act of conservation-restoration of this car but sorry, I´m empty now.
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Ace Zenek
29 Januar 2015, 19:44
€ 51,000. I'm guessing two people will drastically overbid.

Unless someone is building new engines, at some point original engines, and other bits, will become unobtainable. Similar to what has already happened with many Edwardian and earlier engines and parts (dare I say even vehicles?). The only recourse will be to build with non-original engines/parts, make some more, wait for one/some to become available (not likely), or do nothing.

Don't we already accept Bugattis like this? Putting an eight cylinder engine where a four used to belong? Taking one gearbox, modifying it a little and putting it in a model where it does not belong? At some point the owner just wants to get it on the road, and he will use what is available. It may not have everything from the year of manufacture, but at least it will be on the road. We accept many things like this in the hobby. After all there would be no need for parts interchange manuals if people hadn't been doing this for decades.

Although I believe all orginal is best, there is much to be said for these saviors of the many prewar cars on the road today. They kept them going with whatever they had at the time. Who knows, maybe the next barnfind, however unlikely, will be 100 Amilcar CGSs engines that someone found, saved, and put away. Maybe they are still hidden on Roger Baillon's property.
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Unbekannt
29 Januar 2015, 18:07
My guess 20.000 euro.
To high as there is not the correct engine(and it looks that it is collapsing), instruments are not the right ones (pe see le Nivex), bodywork in bad condition, no papers....
On the other hand the lot of publicity around the collection and the Amilcar...

Jan
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Unbekannt
29 Januar 2015, 17:45
My estimate is Euro 18,885 for the Amilcar. It's going to need a pile of money to save it, but hey, you can't take it or the car with you, so spend that cash!
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Unbekannt
29 Januar 2015, 17:06
I will guess 11,000 Euro including buyer fees.
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Unbekannt
29 Januar 2015, 16:37
It would be the basis of a very good Amilcar/Riley by Richard Scaldwell , as is with no documents just a few thousand Euro, but my guess would be that it could go for 31,720. Euro.
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Bres Dominique
29 Januar 2015, 15:54
I offer .... 12630 euros,for the brass PWC plate !!

Dear Dominique,
Your offer is most generous!!
We normally charge only Euro 10 for the PreWarCar brass plate..

the Editor
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Unbekannt
29 Januar 2015, 14:46
I wish to add further comment if I may.
Henk is correct on the CGSs. not the right engine! It even says 5CV, not 7CV, on the plate.
Lot 44, the Lorraine Deitrich, is quite interesting. Just look at the fitted stone-guard to the radiator. Once much more than a truck I would guess. So here a modest 'estimate'.
Lot 2, the Delahaye Type 43, was once a very formal enclosed-drive town car I would hazard. The rear wing is exactly the same as the one on the other type 43, in that it is wider at the bottom front and then narrows about 1/3rd of the way up where the body would have met it. The join between the body, at the bottom where it curves forward and meets the scuttle, is also far too formal for a truck!
The Lago-Talbot T26, Lot 46 is a real case of purchasing a body-plate if the photos are reliable. There is every indication of de-lamination in the steel-work. I doubt if it would be allowed, but this is a car where one would give various areas a gentle poke with a screwdriver before EVER considering purchase!
A lot will depend on WHO (if anyone) is advising the punters.

Regards, Peter.
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Julien
29 Januar 2015, 13:13
A fair price considering the overall condition, missing or unreparable parts (headlights and supports, seats, windscreen, spare wheel, comodo and of course correct CGSS engine) and the recent CGSS prices (see Monaco 2010 RM auction result) would be 15 000 €.

But I fear that the Amilcar frenzy will get the hammer price up to 25 000€.
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Unbekannt
29 Januar 2015, 12:48
I would guess E17,250 - In a way I hope not as it might cause problems with my Amilcar "bitsa" parts gathering project
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Unbekannt
29 Januar 2015, 12:45
Only takes two to start a bidding war – I say it will end at 45 000 Euros.
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Unbekannt
29 Januar 2015, 12:38
My CGSs guess is 31500 Euros :-)
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Unbekannt
29 Januar 2015, 12:06
My estimate - 6,800 euros.
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Unbekannt
29 Januar 2015, 10:53
Many details point at CGSs no doubt. But essential to any car is its engine, even more important for a CGSs I would think. Zooming in on the engineplate one can read 4C instead of CGSs. Moreover the big steeringbox seems to lack. Jumping over these shortcomings and taking into account the 'heat' of the day my best guess is a price over 20000 euro and to be precise: €21.250,-
Regards, Henk
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Unbekannt
29 Januar 2015, 10:38
There has been so much publicity for the Baillon collection that all the cars are going to go for really silly money. I think the Amilcar is in good enough condition (!) to go for the price of a well-restored authentic car, so I'll pitch my estimate at E38,500. It will be restored, and sold soon afterwards for another inflated price, before settling back to a more realistic figure.
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Gunn & Co.
29 Januar 2015, 10:36
It may well be another Bugatti in a lake price. (but without the Bugatti bit).
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Unbekannt
29 Januar 2015, 10:31
The only purpose for the CGSs to be bought would be to be posed on a podest of a museum to demonstrate...what?? Looking at the aluminium parts you can clearly see that there's not one part left that could be used for a running car, they will all fall to dust while cleaning! It's not even usable for spares - so I leave you all to
go for it and stay happy with the Amilcars I've already got...
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Unbekannt
29 Januar 2015, 10:30
Sold at auction for 28.755 euro is my guess. If you enlarge the photos of this CGSs you realise how bad the condition is. Germans would call this ZUSTAND 5. I ones owned and drove exactly the same 1927 Amilcar so I know how a decent example should look like!
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Unbekannt
29 Januar 2015, 10:29
It only needs two people with deep pockets who really want the Amilcar ! I wouldn't be surprised to see it make 54,000 euros.
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Unbekannt
29 Januar 2015, 10:05
The winning buyer will empty the spares bin of any Amilcar club, and I hope it will not be ours !
I guess the buying frenzy has already started.

editor: come on Glen you're overdoing! All the buyer will need is a sparewheel, five tyres, a CGSs engine, a few water hoses and some odd bits. Everything is there and only will need some 'careful recommisioning'. Cheers JB
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Unbekannt
29 Januar 2015, 09:53
This is more complete than my C.G.S.s. I haven`t been able to make a start on it yet, due to a neurological condition, the outcome of which will determine whether I can rebuild it or have to sell it. Fingers crossed.
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Unbekannt
29 Januar 2015, 09:21
There will be somebody, who will pay 28500 Euros for the Amilar to stay in this fabulous, unrestored condition.
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Unbekannt
29 Januar 2015, 09:16
I just wrote the same thing in La Vie de l'Auto ! I gamble more than 30 000 Euros. For the game, I guess 34 561 Euros !
PS : we could do the same game for the Sandford...
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Unbekannt
29 Januar 2015, 08:35
I had a good look at several of the offerings in this auction. Remembering the condition in which one often found cars in scrap-yards in the 1960's and 1970's - and many of these cars seem to be in that sort of order - in several cases I would say that the only usable part would be the chassis plate! Possibly plus a few of the more robust mechanical parts. In other words, purchasers will be acquiring an identity, rather than a car.
A rusted part eventually reaches a state in which it cannot be used. It may, at first glance, even appear sound but only cleaning can really tell you if it can be 'saved'.
I find some of the estimates, especially for post-WW2 exotics somewhat excessive! It is with cars like these that it will prove hard to same parts where rust has had years to attack them.
Of course, as we all know, at Auction reason tends to go out the window so I expect a few records for cars requiring total restoration to be broken.
Guess that the Amilcar will probably make around 10,00€. Personally, I think the estimate is about right.

Regards, Peter.
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Unbekannt
29 Januar 2015, 08:30
That's the big advantage of dreaming about cars, it doesn't cost a penny!
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Unbekannt
29 Januar 2015, 08:17
Dear Joris,
I could not resist making an attempt for the brass plate.My guess is Euro 15,000/-
Wish me luck.
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Unbekannt
29 Januar 2015, 05:25
If there was a Bu-it-now button for the Amilcar @ between € 3-5000 I would have already bought it and started a long term resto... But I am afraid it will reach around € 14.000, which is out of my reach
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Unbekannt
29 Januar 2015, 04:17
If money REALLY was no problem, then I would buy them ALL and slowly choose which to bring to Concourse, which to bring to "Oily Rag" and which to use AS IS !
then I could drive a different one to all the shows, each year ..........Oooooooooh I thing I'm having one of my Dizzy spells again,
Stuart
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Unbekannt
29 Januar 2015, 03:53
I gamble at the final Euro price of Amilcar including buyer's costs being 12334.
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